Revoluțiile și alte chestii, ale lui Nick

acum 2 ani 6 luni #7 de Nick
Planetary Nodes
From Saturn to Pluto



Most astrologers are familiar with the nodal axis of the Moon, but less attention is given to the fact that planets too have a nodal axis! The nodal axis is constituted of two intersecting point where the planet in question comes to cross the ecliptic. Astrologically, these two points are of paramount importance with regards to describing developmental issues pertaining to the planet’s themes.
We must remember: every planet has a Nodal Axis!

For example, the nodal axis of the Moon reflects emotional development and growth requirements. It doesn’t only describe what the person’s emotional needs may be as the regular Moon does, but what he or she needs to learn and develop emotionally. From an evolutionary perspective, the Moon’s nodes show the nature of past life emotional imprinting, and how that imprinting needs to be developed and balanced during the current life. In this regard, it is common for newborns to instinctively express what the south node of the Moon represents by house and sign, because it is something their soul is familiar with since it is already an integral part of their conditioning.

While the nodes of the Moon are exactly opposite each others, the Nodes of other planets are not necessarily so. The north and south nodes of Mercury and Venus can even be in the same sign, while the nodes of Mars usually trine one another.

I would like to focus exclusively on the nodal axis of the outer planets and of Saturn in this article. The nodal axis of these slow moving bodies progresses extremely slowly; their position varies only slightly in the course of the year relative to the position of the Sun and the ecliptic, and this yearly cycle is repeated year after year. Because their cycle is completely associated with the position of the earth and the sun, it only changes one degree every 72 years, relative to the earth angle to the sun.

Consequently, every living being shares almost the same nodal axis position of planets from Saturn to Pluto, with slight degree changes at different times of the year. Below are the positions of these nodes in the last century:

Saturn south node: from17 Cancer to 28 Capricorn
Saturn north node: from 16 Cancer to 29 Capricorn

Uranus south node: from 10 Sagittarius to 16 Sagittarius
Uranus north node: from 10 Gemini to 16 Gemini

Neptune south node: from 9 Aquarius to 13 Aquarius
Neptune north node: from 9 Leo to 13 Leo

Pluto south node: from 17 Capricorn to 21 Capricorn
Pluto north node: from 18 Cancer to 21Cancer

On a personal level, these nodes significantly influence the individual depending upon where they fall in the chart by house and sign, and even more so if a planet in the chart conjuncts one of them. Yet, since everyone on the planet experiences these nodal positions simultaneously, the personal experiences are echoed en masse and create a collective current. Through these planetary node placements, we can identify evolutionary lessons that affect the collective.

The nodal axis of Saturn and Pluto conjunct in Capricorn and Cancer
At a glance it is extremely revealing to notice that the nodes of Saturn and Pluto are conjunct. To be a little more precise, individuals born with a Sun from Aquarius to Cancer will have the north nodes of Pluto and Saturn conjunct in Cancer, while those born with a Sun from Leo to Capricorn will have the south node of Pluto and Saturn conjunct in Capricorn. We can all agree that having Saturn and Pluto in tight aspect in the chart can be extremely challenging – this configuration can shake the fabric of security on a regular basis, and it rigorously tests a person on questions of integrity and strength of character. While the nodes are not planets, they still significantly embody the energy of the planets; we may say that at some level, the whole world is constantly under a Saturn/Pluto conjunction influence; maybe this can explain the fact that distrust in politicians and leaders is “common currency!”

Let’s explore the implications of the axis being in Capricorn and Cancer. I personally interpret the nodal axis as a need to harmonize between the extremes of the south and the north node. The south node represents what is more familiar, the north node what needs to be learned, and the ultimate challenge is to balance both sides. With a south node in Capricorn the approach to life is rooted in a strong reliance on order provided by society and authority figures; at best this means that people understand their share of responsibility in making society work. At worst, this means that guilt, repression, and fear are common motivating forces on a collective level! The north node in Cancer reflects a need to embrace a gentler and more emotional approach to life; some may call it the return of the feminine or the Goddess following millennia of patriarchal domination.

Interestingly, Pluto was discovered in 1930 just as it conjuncted its own north node in Cancer! Maybe this synchronistic event represents an acceleration of the gender quality themes: the generation born with Pluto in Cancer was among the pioneers of the gender equality movements. Moreover, in 1931 and 1932, Pluto in Cancer opposed Saturn in Capricorn on both their nodal axes! Many political events in these early 30’s years shaped the future of the world as we know it, namely Hitler gaining German citizenship and becoming chancellor of the country, and Mohandas Gandhi being in the midst of his revolution to free India and Pakistan from colonial rule. Both the most venerated and the most despicable leaders of the current era gained credibility and prominence during these critical years.

Between 2019 and 2020, Pluto and Saturn will conjunct each other around the twenty first degree of Capricorn, exactly on their own shared south node positions! Similar to 1931, the planetary nodes will surely add a whole new dimension to this upcoming conjunction. The collective implications are of prime order. We have a few bridges to cross until then, but we can anticipate that radical political shifts will occur; additionally, Saturn and Pluto also refer to Karma being created or being purged. This conjunction may relate to events that will either open new doors for a better world order, or induce extreme vice and corruption; usually it is a combination of both positive and negative extremes.

Let’s keep in mind that both the south and north node need to be balanced for the nodal axis evolutionary lessons to be mastered; with Saturn and Pluto, the Capricorn Cancer polarities reflect a need for both rigor and mercy, or accountability and flexibility. But in a general sense, the Capricorn and Cancer polarity of these nodes describe that the collective is in a process of establishing new foundations for existence of life on earth. Cancer and Capricorn reflect maturation processes. It seems we are in the building phase and work on further defining our identity through the systems we develop. The final product is left to see.

Uranus nodal axis in Sagittarius and Gemini
Uranus nodes in Sagittarius and Gemini describe the development of civilization and urbanization, as well as the important cultural and religious current flows. Uranus was officially discovered in 1781 in relative proximity to its own north node. This was also the time of the industrial revolution which induces urbanization and progress; the move from the country (Sagittarius) to the city (Gemini) is obviously in reference to this axis. The shadow of Uranus is reflected in elitism and the sense of entitlement toward those considered “primitive” and “inferior.” We can attest that the dark side of civilization manifested in the colonization of native cultures and the annihilation of their customs for the presumed “greater good” of cultural development. The nodes of Uranus in Sagittarius and Gemini describe graphically the inclination to impose one’s personal opinions (Sagittarius) of what being civilized means (Uranus) on other cultures (Gemini).

Evolutionarily speaking, the nodes of Uranus in Sagittarius and Gemini reflect the necessity to promote cultural emancipation, freedom of thought, and establish a balance between Truth seeking (Sagittarius) and acceptance of the diversity of perspectives (Gemini). Interestingly, the United States which declared its independence with Uranus in Gemini in proximity to its own north node reflects both the dark side of this axis through the subjugation of Native Americans and slavery, and the positive side through establishing its existence on the promise of democracy and cultural freedom.

More recently, World War II ended with the death of Hitler in April 1945 exactly as Uranus was on its own north node in Gemini. Clearly symbolic of these influences, from that moment on, people were free to think again and follow their religious practice.

In 1985 when Uranus conjuncted its south node in Sagittarius, the interracial marriage ban was lifted in South Africa as a step towards the end of Apartheid. Ronald Reagan and Mikael Gorbachev met for the first time; these were meetings that would eventually culminate in the end of the cold war. Additionally, the Live Aid and USA for Africa cultural events were the first of their kind and scale to unite celebrities for humanitarian causes.

Neptune nodal axis in Aquarius and Leo
The nodes of Neptune in Aquarius and Leo refer to the important development of human creativity through research and inspiration. Creativity allows human beings to develop remarkable capacity and play a greater role in the development of life. With Leo and Aquarius, there is a lesson about participation; one is not meant to be a mere spectator in the play of life but an active contributor through creative expression.

The nodes of Neptune in this regard describe the evolutionary lesson of associating one’s creative effort with a greater spiritual meaning. It incites the individual to realize that his or her personal sense of purpose must be in alignment with the greater good of humanity and life as a whole. Neptune transmutes the personal effort to a transpersonal dimension. This evolutionary lesson implies there is a need for humility and greater perspective when expressing one’s creative potential. It also implies one person’s effort can affect the masses and change the course of humanity.

The south node in Aquarius describes the strong focus on the mind as a creative tool; research has induces the development of science and technology which have allowed human beings to become more independent from the divine. The given capacity of intelligence has provided human beings with better tools to cope with existence and enhance life’s quality. On these bases, civilization can develop and thrive. As more knowledge is gained, the existing tendency is for human beings to gain more control over life processes and to end up feeling superior to the divine, or even denying its existence. The whole relationship between humans and their creator is embodied in this axis.

Transiting Neptune is currently in Aquarius and has just recently hovered over its own south node. The global warming crisis is today the subject of many discussions as each one of us revisits the relationship between humans (Aquarius) and nature or God (Neptune). While debates still rage on as to what are the fundamental causes for global warming, human beings are pressured to reconsider their course of action, productivity, and consumerism; creative efforts (Leo, Aquarius) must be aligned with the larger whole (Neptune), and survival depends on it. Indeed Leo reflects the impulse to fight extinction and keep the flame of life burning.

The north node of Neptune in Leo describes that the point of balance is a heart-centered approach to life; finding one’s purpose and destiny must not limit itself to a mere self-gratifying experience, or worse, a gain of privileges at the expense of others. It is about finding one’s own unique way of caring for life.

This is another issue faced by today’s reality where wealth is unevenly distributed and a disappearing middle class sets the stage for a world of rich masters and poor slaves. This theme seems obvious in the Iraq war which started with Neptune on its own south node in Aquarius opposing Jupiter in Leo on the north node. Yet, the “masters” found themselves caught in the chaos of the rebelling “slaves.”

The US presidential election will occur in November 2008 when the Moon’s nodes will conjunct the nodes of Neptune at 13 degrees Leo, Aquarius. Candidate Obama has his Sun right on that degree, Clinton has her Mars on that degree, and so does McCain! The synchronicity is quite compelling! I will not indulge in predictions about the winner, but simply express the hope that the one who possesses the highest capacity to serve humanity (Neptune south node in Aquarius) through his or her personal sense of destiny (Neptune north node in Leo) ascend to the throne. We certainly could benefit from a leader with profound intelligence (Aquarius) and a heart-centered approach (Leo).

Individual charts and the Planetary Nodes
Many historical figures have planets tightly associated with planetary nodes; for example, President Bush has his Pluto conjunct Neptune’s north node at 10 degrees Leo, as well as his Saturn conjunct Saturn’s north node at 26 degrees Cancer. For better or worse, individuals with these associations can more easily tap into the larger collective currents.

A lot more can be studied and said about the planetary nodes. Only a glimpse is possible through a single article, but maybe enough to arouse the readers’ curiosity and stimulate more research.


mauricefernandez.com/planetary-nodes/


جوليته
JayD.Un amestec de energii astrale și praf din stele.

Vă rugăm Autentificare sau Crează un cont să participaţi la discuţie.

acum 2 ani 6 luni #8 de Nick
There are two sets of Planetary Nodes — the Heliocentric North and South Nodes, which are always exactly opposite and the Geocentric Planetary Nodes, which apart from the Lunar Nodes, are rarely in exact opposition. The North and South Geocentric Nodes of Jupiter can vary by as much as two signs from opposition. The North and South Nodes of Mercury and Venus can be conjunct - which means that interpretations based on nodal polarity for the Geocentric Planetary Nodes are difficult.

The HELIOCENTRIC Planetary Nodes are the points where two planetary orbits intersect, as considered from the viewpoint of the sun. The GEOCENTRIC Planetary Nodes are points where a planet’s orbit intersects the ecliptic, from the viewpoint of the earth. This article covers the Heliocentric Planetary Nodes only.

Both the Heliocentric Mean Nodes and the variable positions of the ascending and descending Geocentric Planetary Nodes can be found on ‘Solar Fire’ astrological software.

The Heliocentric Mean Nodes move very slowly — at approximately one degree per century, which may account for the fact that they are often overlooked. Their positions as listed in the Larousse ‘Encyclopedia of Astrology’ for January 1, 1980 are as follows:-

HELIOCENTRIC NORTH AND SOUTH NODES - JANUARY 1, 1980

MERCURY 17.59 Taurus (North Nodes) and 17.59 Scorpio (South Nodes)
MARS 19.24 Taurus (North Nodes) and 19.24 Scorpio (South Nodes)
URANUS 14.01 Gemini (North Nodes) and 14.01 Sagittarius (South Nodes)
VENUS 16.30 Gemini (North Nodes) and 16.30 Sagittarius (South Nodes)
JUPITER 10.14 Cancer (North Nodes) and 10.15 Capricorn (South Nodes)
PLUTO 19.54 Cancer (North Nodes) and 19.54 Capricorn (South Nodes)
SATURN 23.30 Cancer (North Nodes) and 23.30 Capricorn (South Nodes)
NEPTUNE 11.33 Leo (North Nodes) and ll.33 Aquarius (South Nodes)
Plus ..
CHIRON 29.09 Libra (North Nodes) and 29.09 Aries (South Nodes)

MIXING AND MATCHING
Comparison of the Heliocentric Planetary Nodes with the Geocentric Natal chart is very effective. The concept of comparing Heliocentric planet positions with the geocentric chart is not new. In “Revolutionizing Astrology with Heliocentric”, T.Patrick Davis outlines some fascinating research in this area.
It is likely that Heliocentric Planetary Node contacts in your natal chart pinpoint areas where you relate to the ‘world at large’. In particular, conjunctions and major aspects to the natal Ascendant and Midheaven reinforce and add new dimensions of understanding as to what is perceived as your life path.
Natal planets aspecting a Planetary Node or Nodes will be coloured by the energy of that Planetary Node, providing answers to questions not previously explained by planetary aspects alone. One of my students commented that the “Planetary Nodes fill out the horoscope and reveal ways that the otherwise unrepresented parts weave in with the dominant configurations.” — Good observation

PLANETARY NODES — ORBS
Obviously the closer the orb the more powerful the influence. Because the Mercury/Mars and Venus/Uranus Nodes are close pairs, tight orbs are essential. The Saturn and Pluto nodes, three and a half degrees apart, are also close. A 2 degree orb between a natal planet and a Planetary Node position is considered reasonable.
Whilst say a 4 degree orb between an accurately descriptive Planetary Node to a natal Ascendant and Midheaven may be acceptable for some, it also gives scope for slight rectification of a given birth time.

PLANETARY NODES — INTERPRETATION
Traditionally the North Node of any body represents ‘intake’ whilst the South Node represents ‘release’. Because release can be more painful than intake, the South Node does not flow as smoothly as the North Node. As in all successful interpretation, the secret of working with the Planetary Nodes is the same as all our other astrological interpretations, that is to understand the message provided and ‘move with the correct flow’.

MERCURY NODES provide further insight into mental faculties and communication skills.
VENUS NODES highlight relationships, extravagance and artistic talents.
MARS NODES indicate assertive, aggressive behaviour, sporting prowess, accidents and operations.
JUPITER NODES highlight philosophy, education, travel and the concept of expansion and protection.
SATURN NODES indicate security, sometimes over-emphasised, ambition and hardships.
URANUS NODES show clever, inventive and freedom-loving traits and determined self-will.
NEPTUNE NODES indicate artistic and theatrical talents, plus areas of sensitivity and emotional confusion.
PLUTO NODES highlight determination, domination and exploration.
CHIRON NODES express care for the wounded soul, lessons learnt or taught.

If for example the Mercury North Nodes is conjunction the Ascendant, it would enhance the communicative skills and mobility, whereas the Mercury South Nodes suggest that there may be slightly more difficulty in that area.
If for example the Mars North or South Nodes is conjunct or in hard aspect to the natal Mars, competitiveness would be increased, but the tendency towards argumentativeness and accidents may also be noticed. This phenomenom comes under the category of ‘maximum effectiveness’.

MAXIMUM EFFECTIVENESS occurs when a transiting Geocentric planet forms a conjunction or hard aspect to the Heliocentric Nodes of that same planet. In the case of natal astrology, if the Heliocentric Nodes of a planet is conjunct that particular planet in the geocentric natal chart and the planet in question happens to be the chart ruler, or significantly placed in the natal chart, the effect of that planet increases dramatically — see World Events and examples listed below.

WORLD EVENTS AND FAMOUS PEOPLE
If the theory holds water we can expect, when glancing down the list of dates when the Geocentric Sun is conjunct the individual Heliocentric Planetary Nodes, that the dates are close to pivotal world events. Also the birthdays of famous and infamous people, who made or continue to make, an impact on the group consciousness of society. The type of impact made is described by the interpretation of the particular Planetary Node. Some interesting world events are ARMISTICE DAY November 11, 1918, the news that World War I had finished, coincides with the Sun conjunct Mercury South Nodes. The D-DAY INVASION OF EUROPE LANDINGS on June 6, 1944, coincides with the Sun conjunct Uranus North Nodes.

TITANIC HITS ICEBERG AND SINKS - April 14, 1912 - Sun and Mercury square Saturn Nodes, Midheaven conjunct Chiron North Nodes, Geocentric Moon Nodes are square the Pluto Nodes, Jupiter conjunct the Venus and Uranus South Nodes.

TERRORISTS ATTACK TRADE TOWERS NEW YORK - September 11, 2001 - Saturn conjunct Venus and Uranus North Nodes, Uranux quincunx Saturn North Nodes, Pluto conjunct Uranus South Nodes, Venus square Mercury and Mars North Nodes, Jupiter conjunct Jupiter North Nodes.

BALI TERRORIST BOMBING - October 12, 2002 - Sun square Pluto North and South Nodes, Jupiter conjunct Neptune North Nodes, Pluto conjunct Venus and Uranus South Nodes, Uranus quincunx Saturn North Nodes, Venus quincunx Venus North Nodes.

**MAJOR EARTHQUAKE AND TSUNAMI - December 26, 2004 - Ascendant and Chiron conjunct Saturn South Nodes, Saturn conjunct Saturn North Nodes, Neptune conjunct Neptune South Nodes, Midheaven conjunct Chiron North Nodes. NOTE: This natural disaster reinforces my theory of maximum effectiveness regarding the incidence of transiting planets conjunct or in hard aspect to their Heliocentric Planetary Nodes.

FAMOUS PEOPLE
People born with Heliocentric Planetary Nodes conjunct their natal geocentric Sun position are PRINCESS DIANA of England with Sun conjunct the Jupiter North Nodes (=the golden child). Diana’s Ascendant is conjunct the Venus and Uranus South Nodes (=abrupt relationship conflicts, endings, release). The planets Venus and Uranus are also square in Diana’s natal chart. At the time of the accident that led to her death, Diana’s natal Ascendant/Descendant axis and consequently the Venus/Uranus Nodes axis, was activated.
PRINCE CHARLES and PRINCESS GRACE OF MONACO have their natal Sun conjunct the Mercury and Mars South Nodes.
CHRISTINA ONASSIS, the wealthy but tragic heiress daughter of Greek shipping leader Aristotle Onassis, has her natal Sun conjunct the Venus South Nodes.

Computer whiz BILL GATES has the Jupiter Nodes axis square his natal Moon in Aries in the 10th house, opposition Mars in 4th (=birth of new ventures, good fortune through the masses, comfortable home environment, legal and financial issues). His Ascendant is conjunct the Saturn North Node (=discipline, perseverance, the Father figure, success through acting and working alone).

The Great Australian swimmer IAN THORPE has Saturn as the ruler of his natal chart. His natal Saturn is square the Saturn Nodes axis, natal Sun square the Pluto Nodes axis. In his natal chart Saturn is conjunct Pluto. His natal Mars is conjunct the Venus South Nodes and natal Ascendant trine the Mars North Nodes. Ian’s chart is an excellent example of positive reinforcement of powerful natal configurations, suggesting enormous strength and determination to work hard and succeed.

Australian Prime Minister JOHN HOWARD has natal Venus conjunct the Saturn North Node (=love of order and structure), Uranus conjunct the Mars North Node (=determination, inflammatory or aggressive action, success through positive exercise regime) and Ascendant conjunct the Uranus North Node (=unexpected developments, initiating changes, personal inner change, variable environment).

COSMOBIOLOGISTS considering the planetary structure patterns of the Heliocentric Planetary Nodes, as they relate to world trends, will notice that the Venus and Uranus Nodes are conjunct the Midpoint of the Mars/Jupiter Nodes (=good fortune, successful technology and breakthroughs, artistic success). Venus Nodes is semi-square the midpoint of Neptune/Pluto Nodes (=financial transformation and speculation). The degrees of these midpoints are well worth watching in natal and mundane charts for potential activation of these areas.

The close proximity of the Saturn and Pluto Nodes means that the Saturn/Neptune Node midpoint (2.31 Leo/Aquarius) is close to conjunct the Pluto/Neptune Node midpoint (0.43 Leo/Aquarius). These early degrees of the fixed signs become vulnerable points for transits. For those feeling the pinch, the Saturn/Chiron oppositions were prevalent at these degrees in July 2005. Even the Saturn/Chiron oppositions in these signs in the first half of 2006, although wide, could be felt by many. There is so much more information and research to share with the reader, but this will be included in a later article.

As we know, the effects of Solar Eclipses can manifest for years. The August 11, 1999 Solar Eclipse at 18.21 Leo was square to the Mercury and Mars Nodes, reinforcing the emphasis on world-wide communication tests. One manifestation was the exaggeration of aggressive disputes and confrontations, which has been evident over the globe. However, the more inspiring interpretation of joint enterprises and advancement through team spirit and international co-operation, has also been part of the world scene in recent years.

learnaboutastrology.tumblr.com/post/4500.../the-planetary-nodes


جوليته
JayD.Un amestec de energii astrale și praf din stele.

Vă rugăm Autentificare sau Crează un cont să participaţi la discuţie.

acum 2 ani 6 luni - acum 2 ani 6 luni #9 de Nick
Exemplu calcul noduri planetare

Jupiter, nodul nord și sud, geocentric



Calcul aici

www.true-node.com/eph1/



Harta geocentrică



Se observă că Mercur și Venus sunt în conjuncție partilă cu Nodul Sud al lui Jupiter.

Cam despre asta este vorba în articolele de mai sus.



PS

Cred că aspectul ăsta poate fi interpretat ca o conjuncție a lui Jupiter în tranzit cu Venus și Mercur.
De ce zic?
Păi dacă punctul respectiv în 100 de ani e " calea bătută" de Jupiter și la un moment dat Venus și Mercur sunt pe calea lui!!!


جوليته
JayD.Un amestec de energii astrale și praf din stele.

Acest mesaj are o imagine atașament.
Te rugăm să te conectezi sau să te înregistrezi pentru a-l vedea.

Vă rugăm Autentificare sau Crează un cont să participaţi la discuţie.

acum 2 ani 6 luni #10 de Nick
noduri helio si geo pe harta


جوليته
JayD.Un amestec de energii astrale și praf din stele.

Acest mesaj are o imagine atașament.
Te rugăm să te conectezi sau să te înregistrezi pentru a-l vedea.

Vă rugăm Autentificare sau Crează un cont să participaţi la discuţie.

acum 2 ani 6 luni #11 de Nick


Planul de referință sau planul referențial este un plan care conține centrul de gravitate al corpului principal. Planul de referință și planul orbitei sunt astfel două planuri secante. Intersecția lor este o dreaptă numită linia nodurilor. Orbita taie planul de referință în două puncte, numite noduri. Nodul ascendent este acela prin care corpul trece în traiectorie ascendentă; celălalt este nodul descendent.


ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbită_(astronomie)


Câteva elemente de astronomie pentru o mai bună înțelegere/ vizualizare a ce înseamnă noduri planetare.


جوليته
JayD.Un amestec de energii astrale și praf din stele.

Acest mesaj are o imagine atașament.
Te rugăm să te conectezi sau să te înregistrezi pentru a-l vedea.

Vă rugăm Autentificare sau Crează un cont să participaţi la discuţie.

acum 2 ani 6 luni #12 de -Principesa-
Replied by -Principesa- on topic Revoluțiile și alte chestii, ale lui Nick

Nick a scris: Mihnea, te rog, un mesaj de specialist, se poate?


Domnul Firan, fiind un mesager, este ocupat cu altfel de mesaje. Mai ales cu commentu-rile care erau dezactivate, (mai bine era cu ele dezactivate, scriu din punctul meu de vedere si al sentimentelor mele), pe care le-a activat si la care raspunde cu mare dragoste si devotament. Nu cred ca va aparea aici de curand, nu are interes. Pentru mine ar fi cel mai bine sa dezactiveze forumul. In primul rand, dansul nici nu se deranjeaza sa apara si, sincer, fara activitate de orice fel pe forum, si suntem suficent de multi membri ai acestui site, este cam.....

Specialist, da!
Sincer, Nick, incarca-te cu rabdare si speranta...poate apare.
Următorul utilizator(ori) v-au spus Mulțumesc: Nick

Vă rugăm Autentificare sau Crează un cont să participaţi la discuţie.

Timp creare pagină: 0.168 secunde
Motorizat de Forum Kunena